[Solazius] A comando - Lying to Admins 2nd Part

[acomando1]

Byond account and character name:
Ckey: A comando
Character at time of ban: Arkady Sorokin
Other Character frequently played: Kevin Howe
Discord ID (if applicable): acom#8985
Banning admin: Solazius
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Total ban
Ban reason given: LRP, Metacomms, Lying.
Ban length: Permanent
Approximate date that the ban was placed (including time zone): 08/28/22 11:30 CST
Your side of the story:
Ok this is my second attempt after waiting some time and taking Solazius' reply into account and applying some of his pointers.

Me and Altairboy had duo characters we had been talking about for some weeks prior. Altairboy had a couple ideas about what we should start doing with these characters in the future involving corrupt cops and staged crimes. On the day in question we talked as he loaded in, and I began to start drumming up crimes. Following him joining the round he did state to me In character to begin through a subtle order. It was a mistake on my part. The crime involved LRP text as a part of a vandalism case and was of poor choice on my part.

As part of the ban, past notes were taken into account. These notes, I would imagine, could be nearly 1-2 full years old. I do not have access to them but, that is my best guess as the length of time I last played was quite some time.

On the account of changing my story. My story had only changed once, and that was because I had truly believed I had acted after the IC information was gathered. I had mixed up Altairboy and me chatting in TS with having already completed proper in character ingame chat. The reason I changed my stance on this is that you told me that the logs said otherwise, which I was not going to fight you on, because I believe you and I am also sure that I must have just misremembered the order of events.

Why you think you should be unbanned:

In your rule books there is no immediate perma-ban except for incidents of major grief within the guidelines you hase set for the server. I know that these guidelines are for admin decisions based on the severity or sum of crimes. At no point was I confrontational, argumentative, or uncooperative with admins. I acted in a cordial and understanding way, even deferring to the admin when he provided evidence that I thought was contrary due to my misremembering of the event. When given suggestions or course correction I agreed and said I would attempt to implement the suggestions and avoid LRP in the future and fully intended to do so.
Personally I would have expected the escalations to be carried out over the course of multiple rounds giving a chance for course correction, explanation change in behavior etc, but I understand that the admin staff reserves the right to make any rulings they perceive are the proper course and the guidelines are simply guidelines.

I apologize that these interactions have been misconstrued, misunderstood, or tone was lost, it was not my intention for that to happen. I wish to continue playing as I enjoy playing this server as its people and code have a lot to offer and a lot to experience. I feel as though the permanent ban was unjustified as it grossly strayed from the admin guidelines, did not account for my compliance, and was heavily based on a misinterpreted message from altairboy.

I apologize for the LRP and metagaming mishap. I will take actions to prevent this in the future. As for the story changing, I apologize. I honestly misremember one detail and Altair boy provided a flawed statement trying to be cute and vague. Altairboy has not been reached out too and is hesitant to do so as it was stated that others should not involve themselves in this.

I hope that after reading this, the admin staff can reconsider their position and lift the permanent ban. If there is anything else that needs to be cleared up please feel free to reach out to me via reply here, dm in discord, discord chat room, or discord/TS voice call.

[timidvi]

Okay, as one of the admins involved in your banning, I've been asked to weigh in here. Going to include comments on your previous denied appeal too, where relevant. Don't expect me to repeal your ban or anything like that - the decision still ultimately lies with Solazius. I am, again, just here to weigh in on what I've seen and give my general opinion.

Me and Altairboy had duo characters we had been talking about for some weeks prior. Altairboy had a couple ideas about what we should start doing with these characters in the future involving corrupt cops and staged crimes. On the day in question we talked as he loaded in, and I began to start drumming up crimes. Following him joining the round he did state to me In character to begin through a subtle order. It was a mistake on my part. The crime involved LRP text as a part of a vandalism case and was of poor choice on my part.

Starting off, metacomms is still part of your problem, Acom. In neither of your appeals did the admins see any signs of you really acknowledging or apologizing for that fact. If Solazius denies this appeal and still gives you another chance, you'll probably want to address this, acknowledge that another instance will likely result in a permaban without appeal, and so forth. That goes for the others you've been metacomming with too, although they might get some more steps up as long as they don't go about arguing with or lying to administration - that is the fastest way to a permaban on this server.

Following him joining the round he did state to me In character to begin through a subtle order.

This part isn't right. By Altairboy's own admission, which I will be putting here, straight from our adminlogs:

PM: Altairboy/(Riley Hunt)->Solazius/(Ja'jirr Hajii): Well, I didn't ask him to plant anything, more just gave him a list of things that are contraband and said go find these..

Seems like a stretch to go from: list of contraband --> 'furry tards die'. Again, maybe it could have been intended that way - but frankly, bans are less like criminal court cases and more like civil court cases, which means that if it seems quite likely that it's banworthy, it is banworthy. And in this case, you have to make a SIGNIFICANT jump to give you the kind of good will you're asking for. Do you see what I mean here?

I am, however, glad that you admit that the LRP choice of words was a bad one.

On the account of changing my story. My story had only changed once, and that was because I had truly believed I had acted after the IC information was gathered. I had mixed up Altairboy and me chatting in TS with having already completed proper in character ingame chat. The reason I changed my stance on this is that you told me that the logs said otherwise, which I was not going to fight you on, because I believe you and I am also sure that I must have just misremembered the order of events.

See the above, Acom. Do you understand that all of this is all so completely unverifiable that, to literally every admin who got to witness the exchange, it only looks and sounds like someone trying to dodge consequences for something they know they did wrong? Again, don't try thinking of this as a 'criminal court'. This is a 'civil court', and you won't get out of a ban on technicalities. You get out of a ban when the admins think you've truly acknowledged the problems and are going to change - and none of what we've seen so far has been particularly encouraging.

In your rule books there is no immediate perma-ban except for incidents of major grief within the guidelines you hase set for the server. I know that these guidelines are for admin decisions based on the severity or sum of crimes. At no point was I confrontational, argumentative, or uncooperative with admins.

Again, see the above. When you look like you're trying to just dodge a ban in the most shifty of ways? Acom, I don't care if you're the most polite person in the world. But people get put on the stand in courts and lie through their teeth all the time, with a smile on their face, and the ones who do that in a significant manner end up worse off than the ones who don't. Same principle here, Acom. Again, the unverifiability of your story just screams that you were just trying to avoid the ban and thus doesn't really seem cooperative. It'd be different if you at least would have recognized that the metacomms were a problem from the start, since then it'd sound less like an attempt to dodge a ban and more a recognition you did SOMETHING wrong there - but from the start, you seem to have been trying to use the whole thing as a 'I don't deserve to be banned'.

Also, it does seem like you got particularly problematic AFTER the ban. Immediately having your friend Nick trying to drag in Valanthe into a voice chat, and then Aranya when that failed, hardly five minutes after the ban. You, and Nick, and the rest of your metacomms clique, are all very lucky NOT to have just immediately been banned without appeal for the adminshopping by me - and it wasn't just Aranya, but Solazius who thought I should let you all have the chance. I don't think your first ban appeal (or second? Should we count the one you had Nick make for you?) was particularly great either. Going and just predicating your whole ban appeal on how Solazius was unprofessional and basically just name-calling him - I wouldn't have blamed him if he had just permanently denied your appeal right then and there.

In your rule books there is no immediate perma-ban except for incidents of major grief within the guidelines you hase set for the server.

I'm going to note, in particular, here - the metacomms would have netted you a tempban of up to a week, but the subsequent lying to administration is what knocked you right up to the permaban territory. In short, this was a ban for a compound of offences - and the lying in particular is one we don't tolerate, and is genuinely the fastest way to permaban territory on this server. That includes lies by omission and trying to provide unverifiable stories that just sound entirely like they were made up for the purposes of avoiding being banned. That might not be on the guidelines but I feel like it should just be common sense - first off, if you're lying about something, then you evidently have no intention of improving your behaviour and will likely try to toe or cross the line again. Second off, if someone IRL goes and pickpockets something, smashes a window, and hits someone, the punishment they will receive for all three will be worse than the punishment they would receive for just the one - and the same principle applies here. If that isn't common sense, then I suppose I will have to correct that.

Personally I would have expected the escalations to be carried out over the course of multiple rounds giving a chance for course correction, explanation change in behavior etc

I would have agreed! If it was just the LRP behaviour and the near slur of 'tard', I would absolutely have let you go with just that first warning. But you dug yourself a hole and kept digging it deeper.

grossly strayed from the admin guidelines, did not account for my compliance, and was heavily based on a misinterpreted message from altairboy.

All incorrect, as far as I see it - just read the above, it's just more of the same.

I apologize for the LRP and metagaming mishap. I will take actions to prevent this in the future. As for the story changing, I apologize. I honestly misremember one detail and Altair boy provided a flawed statement trying to be cute and vague. Altairboy has not been reached out too and is hesitant to do so as it was stated that others should not involve themselves in this.

If Solazius decides your ban appeal is sufficient, I hope so too. It seems like you've genuinely reflected on most of your problems, so if nothing else I do recommend that Acomando be given one final chance for an appeal, again in one more week. Please also warn your friends not to engage in metacomms while playing, and to be careful about anything which might be construed as LRP. Also, to especially be careful about lying to administration, admin shopping, or arguing with administration. None of these problems involving admins will be tolerated in the future, and if I catch it, don't expect much more than one warning before I start hitting the permaban buttons.

I will, lastly, note that our server has formal advisors, several from the Hypatia community, and a handful of our currently active staff have also expressed past problems with you and your group elsewhere. Many of them are already telling us you and your group are more trouble than you're worth, so frankly we're already extending an olive branch for you guys. Please try to keep that in mind.

[acomando1]

Thank you for your feedback! I am sorry that I did not get my intention to avoid meta comms in the future written clearly within the message.

I definitely will work towards avoiding meta comms. We frequently talk in TS but always attempt to avoid acting on anything in character. This was a fine line I will just avoid entirely in the future.

All I can say to the unverifiable TS communication is that I am sorry, I was not trying to dodge a ban and by the guidelines I had seen, even without this infraction a 3-6 day ban would still be outlined. I apologize on that part for appearing shifty, I just wanted to help you guys get all the info, in doing so made it appear as though I was trying to dodge the ban.

Thank you for weighing in, your metaphor was helpful. I did not mean to admin shop if it appeared that way I just wanted to send things up the chain of command by contacting the people I knew. I apologize for this. I did learn through all of this that I should just go and DM the involved admin at the start instead of submitting through friends who know the system better.

[Aranya]

If I may weigh in,

It is my personal belief that, regarding Metacomms, as long as no 'Icky Ocky' actions are taken and abused, it's fine. Because, you know, even if we ARE playing SS13, people have friends. And I can't just ask people to just sit there silently in VC when playing, you know? That's crazy.

So overall, if y'all be adults about it and don't abuse the icky ocky, I don't particularly mind.

But that's just me.

[timidvi]

If I may weigh in,

It is my personal belief that, regarding Metacomms, as long as no 'Icky Ocky' actions are taken and abused, it's fine. Because, you know, even if we ARE playing SS13, people have friends. And I can't just ask people to just sit there silently in VC when playing, you know? That's crazy.

So overall, if y'all be adults about it and don't abuse the icky ocky, I don't particularly mind.

But that's just me.

Agreed. Problem is that it was, in fact, abused here - so we'll leave that as my amendment. Chat with friends all you want. Don't use it to send backup or get people to do specific tasks during a round. Don't use it to share current round info with other players. Certainly don't use it to go and start doing something that might be seen as OOCly problematic.

Still, I'll repeat my usual: I'm more the admin who deals with toxicity, so for me the primary problem is if you're being problematic within the community (eg. oocly harassing other players, or doing any of the admin-related offenses I previously described). In this case, I'm hardlining the metacomms because you a) abused it and b) hadn't, until recently, seemed to be reflecting on that or willing to apologize for it; but rather seemed to be trying to use it as a reason for ban avoidance. Even if some of us admins are willing to turn a blind eye from time to time, it's still not exactly something that any server in SS13 particularly approves of, whether HRP or LRP. And in a case like this where, at best, it was abused and at worst is an active attempt to lie to server admins...

You already get the idea, I said just about everything I needed to say in my first post.

[Solazius]

Heyo! Sorry for the wait on the final official reply to the ban appeal.

I honestly misremember one detail and Altair boy provided a flawed statement trying to be cute and vague.

I'm... Not entirely sure how he was trying to be cute and vague. He gave a response that was entirely contrary to the actions you claimed he did, either in-character OR over voice communications.

and was heavily based on a misinterpreted message from altairboy.

How else would I interpret that? In no way does "Gave him a list of contraband and go find these" translate to "Vandalize things or to drum up fines for Aegis" in any way, shape, or form. Not even close.

I was fairly close to approving the appeal outright, but I'm actually curious to see how exactly those exact words could be interpreted in the way you're suggesting.

Altairboy has not been reached out too and is hesitant to do so as it was stated that others should not involve themselves in this.

Actually, several people from the friend group you'd mentioned reached out to me in DMs already, asked several questions, and asked if it would be alright if Altair messaged any of us in discord. You yourself sent me a similar message, I believe. If I'm not mistaken, Aranya was reached out to regarding the incident, but has not divulged any information regarding what was discussed with the team.

[acomando1]

Altair Boy asked me, but I said to hold off for your reply as I did not want him adding anymore as I know they kind of all messaged on their own accord and just wanted to handle it between me and yourself.

I will tell him to message you when he returns from work.

[Solazius]

Heyo! I'm back finally, after speaking with Altairboy in DMs.
Let me start off with this


Now that we've got that out of the way, here's what Altairboy said.



Frankly, I agree with Timid 110% about what she said in her reply, that this seems like a massive fabrication.

This also brings up another point brought up by Timid. These are all assumptions that have zero way of being validated whatsoever. It was assumed that I would actually know that when Altairboy said "A" in his reply, I would have 'understood at the time' that he actually meant "Z". Another massive stretch that has no way of being validated whatsoever.

I personally think both of you are absolutely lying through your teeth, and doing a reasonably poor job of it.
I'm not entirely sure why either of you thought this was your best course of action, as it's honestly only made things worse for everyone involved.

However, despite the reasonably blatant falsehoods you've presented at every single turn, you, acom, have had several reasonably minor offenses. So here's what I'll do, going against the advice of most of my peers within the team.

I'm going to approve the ban appeal for acom, with a few caveats.

The next time there's a hint of metacomms, or untrue statements from any of the parties involved, being Acomando, Altairboy, and Amerakee, you will be permanently banned from the server. Be sure to be extremely clear with exactly what you mean, leaving very little to the imagination or assuming hidden-meanings will be understood if you are ahelped. It will end poorly for everyone involved.

I don't expect to see you back here in the ban appeals forum again, friend. One way or another

[Solazius]

As it was requested that I reiterate for clarity, any further instances of lying to administrators, presenting unverifiable information as facts, any instances of metacomming, or "admin-shopping" to have bans overturned by Acom, Altairboy, or Amerakee, will result in permanent bans.

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